I wanted to bring to the forefront a conversation that has taken shape in later comments of our "Sending a Positive Message to Our Teens About Sex" post. The statement was made that we (Primarily Mr. Bowie and Myself) are completely ignorant about Religion in public schools. There apparently is a thriving bible group and religious youth group movement... sanctioned by public school officials, going on across the nation that has been kept secret from the the rest of us. I am thrilled to death to hear this as I am sure you all are as well...but I find it extremely hard to believe. What has your experience been in your area of the country?
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About Authors:
Dan Colgan:
Dan has been a conservative political activist for 15 years serving as a former member of the Adams County Republican committee, contributing author to various politically oriented blogs, a member of PA Cleansweep, worked as a volunteer on the Bob Dole, and GW Bush presidential campaign teams in Adams County and most recently served as State Chairman of Cox for President campaign in Pennsylvania. Dan can be reached at dpcolgan@hotmail.com
David J Bowie:
Dave has been an activist for conservative causes since his early 20's. He is a retiree of the Pennsylvania State government from which he brings extensive experience in both State and Federal legislation. He has been involved in the pro-life movement since 1980 and has participated in the annual March on Washington to commemorate the infamous 1973 Roe v. Wade decision. Dave has been a contributing author to various political blogs in addition to being a founding and sustaining member of RCFA since its inception in 2005.
Dave can be reached at djb952@comcast.net
Emily Ulrich:
Emily has been a conservative activist for 12 years. Most of her activism has been on the front lines of many campaigns, attending rallies and supporting various conservative causes. Her early experience was involved in the Christian Coalition. She helped her husband with two elections to Republican State Committee and local Republican committee. She is also involved in assisting the American Family Association of PA. She was encouraged by another woman to start a conservative women’s blog and rose to the challenge. Her humble blogging endeavors are because she has been influenced and inspired by great conservative activist. Emily can be reached at Emily_ulrich@earthlink.net
Dan has been a conservative political activist for 15 years serving as a former member of the Adams County Republican committee, contributing author to various politically oriented blogs, a member of PA Cleansweep, worked as a volunteer on the Bob Dole, and GW Bush presidential campaign teams in Adams County and most recently served as State Chairman of Cox for President campaign in Pennsylvania. Dan can be reached at dpcolgan@hotmail.com
David J Bowie:
Dave has been an activist for conservative causes since his early 20's. He is a retiree of the Pennsylvania State government from which he brings extensive experience in both State and Federal legislation. He has been involved in the pro-life movement since 1980 and has participated in the annual March on Washington to commemorate the infamous 1973 Roe v. Wade decision. Dave has been a contributing author to various political blogs in addition to being a founding and sustaining member of RCFA since its inception in 2005.
Dave can be reached at djb952@comcast.net
Emily Ulrich:
Emily has been a conservative activist for 12 years. Most of her activism has been on the front lines of many campaigns, attending rallies and supporting various conservative causes. Her early experience was involved in the Christian Coalition. She helped her husband with two elections to Republican State Committee and local Republican committee. She is also involved in assisting the American Family Association of PA. She was encouraged by another woman to start a conservative women’s blog and rose to the challenge. Her humble blogging endeavors are because she has been influenced and inspired by great conservative activist. Emily can be reached at Emily_ulrich@earthlink.net
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"usurpation is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed."... George Washington
27 comments:
PA: I am somewhat reluctant to lead-off the comments on a posting, because someone sooner or later is going to accuse me of "pulpit-pounding," even if I don't cite a single Scripture verse. But anyway, I've been call worse and I'm sure you have as well. Nevertheless the record of Supreme Court decisions on the subject of religious expression in our public schools speaks for itself, and bears some discussion. My apologies if this comment is unusually long.
First in 1962 in Engel v. Vitale, a simple 22-word prayer, which mentioned God's Name one time, was declared unconstitutional.
Second, in 1963 the Supreme Court in Abington v. Schempp ruled that daily classroom prayer and devotional Bible reading, violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, and was unconstitutional.
Third, posting of the 10 Commandments was struck down in 1980 in the Case of Stone v. Graham. The Supreme Court concluded: "If the posted copies of the Ten Commandments are to have any effect at all, it will be to induce the school children to read, meditate upon, perhaps to venerate and obey, the Commandments. However desirable this might be as a matter of private devotion, it is not a permissible state objective under the Establishment Clause."
The decisions, however are not all bad, because there are at least 6 rulings of the High Court which have upheld the Equal Access Act, and there is no doubt that this has helped Christian and other religious organizations to gain access to our public schools and other public places. But I point out that this is the exception NOT the rule!
I understand that this is not exactly what you asked for through your posting, but I felt in the interest of debate that a look at what the U.S. Supreme Court has said on this subject was in order. SO LET THE HOSTILE NAME-CALLING BEGIN--THE LORD GAVE ME BROAD SHOULDERS!!!
Do I hear more Pulpit Pounding? I really wish people who are full of themselves would quit the pulpit pounding. It's getting hard to hear in here.
You know Shaft, I had a degree of respect for you and your knowledge of the issues, but it seems you are buying into this "pulpit-pounding" nonsense of others. It really does not help the discussion process, and that is truly unfortunate. It is obvious from all this name-calling that you just don't want to deal with what the state of the Law is in this country regarding religious expression in our public schools. You can call it whatever you like, but you simply can't deny the facts of this situation.
Bowie I was just joking around. Don't take things so seriously. I just got finished reading all the comments on "Sending a positive message...". Thank you for the compliments.
I'd like toknow why all of you SITINGS pre-date the presidential signing og the Equal Access Act of Aug, 1984.
Shaft - Just an bystanders view - I didn't think you were joking either...
Sorry about that, next time I'll put "j/k". I figured witht he way I usually post you would know that I was joking.
OK - I have read some (not all) of the information on the religioustolerence.org website and I'd like to point out the exact phrase that supports my original argument that public schools do NOT allow sanctioned prayer groups... (ANON1, ANON2 and any others who were involved in the original discussion)....
"The language of the Act is quite clear. Such schools must allow additional clubs to be organized, as long as:
Attendance is voluntary.
The group is student-initiated.
***************************************
The group is not sponsored by the school itself, by teachers, by other school employees, or by the government. This means that such employees cannot promote, lead or participate in a meeting."
These groups are NOT School sponsored in fact the law explicitly states that officials cannot even be involved!
"This means that such employees cannot promote, lead or participate in a meeting. However, a teacher or other school employee can be assigned to a group for 'custodial purposes'."
"Persons from the community may not "direct, conduct, control, or regularly attend activities of student groups."
In addition, this piece of %%$#Xser~ oh sorry legislation also opens the door for other groups of less redeeming qualities such as Satanists, Witchcraft, Gay and Lesbian groups... and probably would allow the "children of the KKK" to form a group if they didn't participate in any cross burnings.
My Mistake Shaft, but you need to be a clearer next time!!
From and Occasional Visitor:
To PA-CONSERVATIVE:
I occasionally visit this blog and I have to comment on the lack of respect you show to those who disagree with you.Your commenters start out in the spirit of discussion only to be dismissed by you and your compatriots. Your sarcastic overtones on the heading for this particualr discussion are loud and clear. Since you officiate this blog, I feel it is up to you to spearhead its professionalism.Unless you have a degree in Political Science, your opinion is of no more value than those who blog on.I believe your commenters mirror your spirit. Just trying to help.
From anonymous 2, who never said that schools across the nation were the same as his but at the same time doubts very strongly that things are any different elsewhere.
"In addition, this piece of %%$#Xser~ oh sorry legislation also opens the door for other groups of less redeeming qualities such as Satanists, Witchcraft, Gay and Lesbian groups... and probably would allow the "children of the KKK" to form a group if they didn't participate in any cross burnings."
Yes I do believe would be the point of equal access.
How about this be the wrap up summary of this entire debate:
We are not a country of Christians. We are a nation of all beliefs and the lack of them. To endorse Christianity- or any other group- specifically would constitute government sponsorship of that group. Schools are for learning and churches are for worshipping. If you want your kids to go to school in order to learn more about catholocism, send them to Catholic school.
Lack of respect.. You have got to be joking. Anyone who has a valid argument to be made is given every opportunity to do so.
The original commentors made an effort to point out that our position that "School Sponsored" prayer groups existed in public school which is obviously a falacy. It is against several rulings of the Supreme Court and we have gone about disputing those comments. The animosity that was shown was only in retort to the unprovoked comments questioning experience and intelligence on the matter.
You beat me to the punch PA, so all I can say to this is AMEN!!
(anon 2)
pa-c, I never said this club was school sponsored. You certainly have a way of twisting the facts to suit your own arguments...
OK Shaft-I will try and sort through your comments one by one. I hope I don't miss any.
1. I agree that parents should be responsible for teaching our young people moral values, which by definition needs to include responsibility and accountability for one's actions.
2. I agree in part with teaching all forms of contraception, however I believe the emphasis must be placed on abstinence. "Pulling-out" as you suggest, is simply not an option.
3. The moral values of the Bible ARE absolute. I should point out that the term "separation of church and state" did not come into vogue until the 1947 decision of the Supreme Court in Everson v. Board of Education. Justice Hugo Black concluded the Majority Opinion: "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach." Whenever the Bible is used one takes the risk of offending someone else. To back-track just a bit, if you recall Jefferson's 1801 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, his definition of "separation between church and state," was that the government would never dictate how an individual chose to worship, nor would it establish a national church such as existed in England.
Your thoughts on this when you have a minute.
BTW Shaft: My compliments were sincere. I am quite impressed with your grasp of the issues, as well as your knowledge of Scripture. I checked out some of your sites and noticed that you have a Bible on-line link. I must admit I was not aware there were so many different versions of the Bible. I knew of the King James, New King James, NIV and the Catholic Bible, but there were versions I have never heard of before. Most impressive.
Get a room you two :) LOL
OK - let me refresh the comments made and yes these were in fact made in the context of Prayer in school:
1. Comment from Anon:
"Who said students can't read the bible during their free time? They most certainly can, but they don't"
To further the exactness of what we were talking about in the conversation I said
"furthermore I would also suspect that IF you were caught reading the bible on school grounds you would be escorted off the premises."
2nd comment from an Anon:
"The high school mentioned previously has a PRAYER CLUB. (Yes, it is a public high school.) They have a picture in the yearbook along with all of the other clubs."
Now later on in the conversation we were hit with "we never said it was school sponsored... I'm not sure how you have unsanctioned clubs in your yearbook but more power to you. -
Everyone's a comedian-Right PA? Nice to see a little humor for a change, although I think I'm missing something with the squirrel worship. (see "This is getting ludicrous posting")
You've never heard of Squirrel worship? - Its all the rage with the NUTS in California :)
I've heard of many things, but never squirrel worship!!
Is ther a Squirrel Worship blog? Looks mighty interesting.....
www.squirrelisgod.blogspot.com :)>>>>>>>>
Only through Tail are we saved! - OK.... Sorry
anon 2
Except it wasn't me that made that post. All my posts are preceded by "Anon 2".
Even so, the other poster was right. I don't know if I mentioned the name of the school somewhere else (I don't think I did), but the club is pictured in the yearbook and has 10 members. In addition, its advisor is a Chemistry teacher.
The only issue with any law mentioned is that it can't receive taxpayer money- and it doesn't. None of the clubs here do.
Well it was said by some ANONYMOUS and hense the reason for the back and forth - I don't attribute comments to you on purpose and apologize if you got mistaken but sign on with an ID so we can recognize you when you come. - Your information on logon is sent to blog.com not here -
"Will do", says anonymous 2.
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