Here's another excellent article link from the Family Research Council, which I thought you would find of interest. Here's the link:
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS03B1&f=WU05F05&t=e
Comment is invited after you have had a chance to read the article.
Jun 7, 2005
SENDING A POSITIVE MESSAGE TO OUR TEENS ABOUT SEX!
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
77 comments:
These methods will work if we have laid the groundwork with our children at home. We must tell them and show them in the way that we TREAT them that they are truly unique treasures given to us by God. Only then will they look high and low for someone who will treat them with the love and respect they deserve and settle for nothing less. Casual sex will not be such a casual decision then and they will understand how important it is to wait until they get what they deserve.
Our government and especially our public school system needs to get out of the business of teaching values at all!
Lets level the playing completely! -
Allow me, a private school parent - to take the $4500 a year I spend in school taxes, and spend it on the education and value system of my choice. That way President Bush and the rest of the government can forget about any of the $800 million that they've alotted for any of the programs. Values not only start at home they should continue at home for a lifetime.
Its far time that we begin to demand that parents do their jobs! - This isn't a 6 year job its a lifetime commitment - Too many parents are relying on the school system to teach their kids how to be good people. - The education system's primary job is to make sure that these kids can read, write, add and subtract - the rest is our job!
If parents in this country would wake up and take responsibility for the raising of their own kids, we wouldn't need to fund programs like these that collectively cost 800 million plus to "parent" our children. Only those children who weren't blessed with a nurturing environment would need guidance from these programs.
..Is there an echo in here?
:)
No.Just think the programs shouldn't be eliminated but be available to thoses in need of guidance.
To Anonymous & PA-There must be a very loud echo, and I'm going to add to it, because you both hit the nail on the head when you stated that parents need to take the responsibility of teaching values to their children. BTW: I just love it when someone has the "stones" to put the price tag on programs. It really gets the juices flowing-if you know what I mean? Just one question though: How do differentiate between those who "need" guidance from those who do not?
Possibly make the literature available to high school guidance for the asking-
Excuse my sarcasm, but do we give them the literature with or without condoms?
Sorry, but I just can't agree!
Bowie, did I say with condoms? No.I was talking about abstinence programs that you directed us all to view. Stop looking for trouble and something to shake a stick at.
Annon - I think that was a joke :)
Let him speak for himself, please.
I can't help if some people don't have a sense of humor!!
To PA-I can speak for myself, but thanks for the assist anyway!
(different anonymous)
As a high school student, I would like to point out that what that article said about prevention being taught over abstinence is not true at all. At my school, abstinence was taught in health as the number one way to avoid teen pregnancy and STD's. They definitely did not tout condoms and the pill as ways to get by, and by no means did they talk about these like they were acceptable at our age (which I would agree with).
To "Different Anonymous": Question--What year were you in High School?
I think and even better question DB would be WHERE are you in high school. If you attend a private or parochial school the that statement is not such a surprise. However, if you are attending public school I'd love to sit in on that health class since it is fairly unbelievable. I'd have to hear that for my own ears.
Point well taken, PA!
From Annonymous number 1
To Bowie,
It's just that I hear so much pulpit-pounding from you I didn't think you had a sense of humor.Don't forget your little smiley face next time. :)
To Anonymous's - Please take a second and get a username, it really does help in discussions to know who your talking with -
To Anonymous #1: It's not just "pulpit-pounding" as you say, but to use my favorite cop show quote-"it's just the facts." When one is dealing with such a highly controversial issue as this, it's very difficult to avoid using Scripture as a behavioral road map, after all there isn't one form of behavior that's not covered in the Bible. Perhaps if our Schools were still allowed to use the Bible in class, this discussion would not be necessary.
If everyone in school used the Bible to cross-reference in class, there would be too much "dualing-verses" going on to allow time to learn.What's wrong with simply drawing from human experience?
Anonymous: I'm not suggesting using Scripture as just another reference book, but students and even teachers, for that matter, should be permitted to read the Bible, during specified "non-instructional" times i.e., study hall, lunch or other "personal" time periods. I do agree however that using the Bible as you suggest would lead to the "dualing verses" scenario and very little learning would occur. Nevertheless, I believe our "human experience," would be much better if we got back to God's Word!
Kids in school these days have VERY LITTLE spare time during the scheduled school day.They barely have time for lunch. I suggest they use their scripture time with their families at home at night.
AN EVEN BETTER IDEA!!!
(anonymous number two)
Who said students can't read the bible during their free time? They most certainly can, but they don't.
I am in a public high school. They definitely teach abstinence over prevention, and they define sex as an act which two adults take part in (they made sure to tell us that we were not yet adults). You wouldn't believe the moral values of some of these heathen liberals!
I wish to remain anonymous.
From Anon. #1
Point well taken. You can't label all public schools as "condom vending machines". It's just not so.
Guessing Mr Bowie and Mr PA were both educated in private catholic schools. Again that narrow point of view thing that has been mentioned previously in other postings.
Catholic Chicks, are some of the easiest girls around. Usually because the are so repressed.
Gonna tell me you guys waited till you got married to have sex?
OK - Where do I begin? - First to Anon 2 - Do you have tremendous amounts of free time at school? I would suspect not - furthermore I would also suspect that IF you were caught reading the bible on school grounds you would be escorted off the premises.
Second, you are absolutely right - that we should not pigeon-hole all public schools into the same condom-toting bunch. However it is a very small minority that take the approach that your high school does - congratulations.
Finally to Anon the 3rd or 2nd or 1st - (get an identity it is much easier in the long run for all of us) - Not that it is any business of anyone else in the world but I did wait until I found the person I was going to spend the rest of my life with. If that was the litmus test that the majority used I would have no arguments.
from that answer, I think that we all can assume that we've found yet another guideline of your religion that you chose not to follow.
Guess Catholic chicks really are easy.
If you have never attended a public school how would you know that anon 2's school is the exception not the rule?
From former Anonomous 1
I'll figure out how to choose a blogger name yet! The above comments were not mine!!!!God help me figure out this damn process........I'll be back and by the way, not ALL Catholic girls are easy. Take it from one who was quite the "hold-out"........
Also hate the term "chick".
To whatever Anonymous made the comment about How would I know about Public school... I am trying not to be condescending...I really am but I don't have to go to medical school to know how to take care of athlete's foot.
Paying attention, reading, staying involved - I have been involved with politics and education for years so where I received my education isn't really the only barameter.
To AnonChick - That is one of the most demeaning terms... -
I'd like to address the Anon that feels compelled to point out to me my failings as a Catholic. "Judge not, lest ye be judged" - I get it - maybe you should as well.
To Pa, FYI:
The high school mentioned previously has a PRAYER CLUB. (Yes, it is a public high school.) They have a picture in the yearbook along with all of the other clubs.And before you jump on the number enrolled in the club, it's membership equals that of the National Honor Society. The school ranks in the top 10% of the nation.You need to do a little more research before you judge the public schools. You come off as very narrow minded when you generalize like you do.
OK Anon but I'm very safe in saying your Public High School having a prayer group is a minority among the nation. That doesn't make me narrow minded - that makes me observant
Since only 10% of American children attend private schools (which includes Catholic enrollment but not exclusively) the other 90% vast majority of the children represent a VERY LARGE number of individuals made up of every god-fearing religious group you can imagine. Catholic private schools are not the only ones who want to worship their god in the school environment and private schools choose to form school-sanctioned clubs to do so.
Being observant isn't being factual
OK - Site me some substanciated statistics from a verifiable source then on your theory ... (not trying to be argumentative) and I will do the same - My position is that "School sponsored" prayer groups which meet on school grounds during the school day are extremely rare in the US. I find it hard to believe that public schools who hold reading the bible in school as being "against the law" would ever allow district sponsored prayer groups.
Under the federal Equal Access Act (which opened the door to many non-curriculum-related clubs) students were permitted to form religious clubs and hold meetings(without adult leaders). Promoted by Christian concervative groups, an estimated 15,000 public schools in 1995, had prayer clubs in place.
Anmerican Association of School Administrators web site.
Searching Thomas.loc.gov for information on that Act - Not finding anything so far - Was it passed in 1995? -
Aug.11, 1984, The Equal Access Act (Doubting Thomas)
From anon 2
To say that we'd be escorted off the premises is almost a joke to me.
And yes I do have about 135 free hours per school year- most kids take a study hall.
You make it sound as if we are constantly monitored in school. Maybe that was the case in Catholic school... I guess it was just an honest mistake having never been to a public high school. But I would like to see your sources on this whole topic. Are you just assuming that my school is the exception? Because I'd be willing to bet that the High School I used to go to is the exact same way with this.
Ironic that our school doesn't frown on bibles being read but puts the tightest possible censors on the internet. I guess it isn't so liberal after all. Leave it up to the Christian Right to dictate what's appropriate for the student body to see...
PA-
Not so "extremely rare" after all.
Anon2 Woooowwww... Back the truck up - why the animosity? No one is judging anything... I'm thrilled to hear that your public high school allows this.... Considering the overwhelming evidence of removing the 10 commandments, children being restricted from doing book reports on bible stories and the removal of organized prayer at lunch - I find it extremely hard to swallow that they are letting you have bible study and bible groups while at school - This would most definitely be considered "School Sponsored Prayer" would it not? And you can bottle up your condescending attitude about what I have or have not experienced I've given you no reason to give me such attitude.
This is a discussion not a lynching
Anon1 - Not a doubting thomas at all, just want to see the facts for myself is all..
From Anon 1
It's just that your "POSITION that school sponsored prayer groups that meet during the day are extremely rare in the US" was totally wrong. We should not speak from "positions", but JUST THE FACTS.
Wrong according to you. Frankly I haven't seen any such facts as of yet - I've heard hearsay and representations by third partys but the only witness info I've gotten is two Anonymous people who dispute what I'm saying based on their own individual schools. And that's fine everyone has their opinions...its the tone in which you are expressing them that has me a bit unsettled.
Anon 1
Didn't you check out the Equal Access Act entry? Do you dispute it? I'm not sure why you haven't mentioned it.
No need to feel unsettled. :)
It is not listed on thomas.loc.gov - nothing prior to 1989 is listed but will check out.
Just look up The Equal Access Act.That will tell you.Keep Trying.
To Anon 2: I have been trying to sift my way through all the comments on this subject, and there were quite a few, but let me try and clarify a few things. First, who said that kids can't read the Bible in School--The Supreme Court of the United States did in 1963 with the decision of Abington v. Schempp (374 US 203). The Court concluded: "The reading of the verses, even without comment, possesses a devotional and religious character and constitutes in effect a religious observance." Therefore PA's observation that a student could concieveably be escorted off school premises is not that far fetched.
Second you are quite correct that the Equal Access Act (20 USC 4071) has opened many doors to religious groups, and their is ample case law to support this position.
Third, according to the Council for Private Education, the national enrollment in private schools for 2003-2004 was 6,256,000 which represents 11.5% of ALL US students. The total number of private schools from 1999-2000 was 27,223 or 23% of ALL US Schools.
Fourth, there is no school in the country, with the possible exception of private Christian Schools that would allow prayer clubs or Bible groups durung the School day. Under the Equal Access Act, such activities would have to be conducted either before or after instructional time. The Act also provides that "equal access" must be given to Christian or religious organizations, as well as other secular organizations.
While you are to be admired for the strength of your beliefs, the inaccuracy of your facts and statistics is most disturbing.
As long as the meetings are not tutored by an adult (ulterior motives?) they may be conducted. They may even go so far as having speakers on occasion! Please see web site : The American Association of School Administrators ( MSA)to clear up you facts.No need to feel disturbed.
Look under: Bible Clubs and Equal Access on that site.
To PA: FYI The Equal Access Act is PL 98-377 (or 20 USC Sec 4071) and was signed by the President on August 11, 1984.
Mr. Bowie,
It's been a long day. I'm very sleepy. We'll continue this in the near furture. Have a good weekend!
Good night Anonymous!!
Final Thought to Anonymous: I have always been skeptical of information obtained from School Administrators, because they have as much knowledge of the Law as a stick of bologna. I usually find my information on these matters from either the DOJ or US Department of Education websites. I have found their information much more thorough and accurate. I have not known many School Administrators who hasn't thought he/she was some sort of dictator with absolute authority when the child arrives at school. Our children do not "check" their constitutional rights at the school door, and our judicial system, such as it is is slowly beginning to realize that fact, but there is still a long way to go.
Final thought to Mr. Bowie
Please check out http://www.religioustolerence.org/equ-accehtm . They seem to speak a language you understand.
YEAH what he said!!! - Sorry folks I just have been too busy to do any research on this today - job things you know
When you have time Mr.Pa please take a look and let me know what you think. I'll be waiting.....
Have a nice weekend! :)
(number two here)
"While you are to be admired for the strength of your beliefs, the inaccuracy of your facts and statistics is most disturbing."
I hope that one wasn't directed at me, because I haven't put out a single inaccuracy in this thread.
When did I say this club met during the school day? None of them do.
Sorry if you think there was any level of animosity in my post...reading it again, I can't really see how it would offend anyone unless he was eager to be offended.
With so many "anonymous" commenters it is hard to tell one from the other, but as they say "if the shoe fits?" Whether or not it was directed to you, is really not the paramount issue, because there have been inaccurate statements made and statistics offered. Further, while you did not directly say that a prayer group or Bible study met during the school day, the implication was certainly evident, at least to me anyway. If you are basing your opinions on the "religious tolerance" website, may I suggest changing your point of reference. I have to agree with PA, if those of you who choose to use the "anonymous" label would get a username, it would make the debate process better. It always helps to know who one is talking to. However that is your choice! As I said previously the Official websites for the Department of Justice and Department of Education provide much better information on the state of the Law, and will explain in better detail what a students rights are under those Laws. Also, it would be a good idea to familiarize yourself with the various Supreme Court decisions regarding prayer, Bible reading and posting of the 10 Commandments in public schools. I think you will be in for quite a revelation.
Thanks for the compliment--must have been all those years of working in State Government. As for being full of myself is concerned, I just call it as I see it, I can't help it if you can't handle the "real" facts. Next, point, I never denied nor ignored the Equal Access Act. Federal Law speaks for itself, as does the pronuncements of our Supreme Court, although I don't agree with many of them, particularly on those issues I cited in my previous comment. Interesting how you side-stepped that issue just to name-call, but frankly I've been called much worse. I neither apologize for my Faith nor my blunt approach on any of the issues discussed on this site, and if that means I'm full of sh*t then so be it. Finally, your language is most inappropriate, and contributes nothing constructive to the discussion process.
Anonymous - Your use of inappropriate language is not appreciated and will not be tolerated. Please clean it up - Society may accept the use of these type of phrases but we don't have to here.
Pa:
You have never been too tired before to wow us with your wisdom so perhaps your wisdom train has been derailed?
And Bowie:
Perhaps you could print a list of BOWIE ACCEPTED REFERENCE SITES so that we could all be as narrow minded as you? AS for your "not compromising your faith", who asked you to? Haven't you covered that over and over and over and over again? Who cares? My god methinks thou doth protest too much. Heard that before?
Ok Anonymous - Yes we have heard all the same ... before from others too scared to register a username and be identified with their comments. Keep hiding behind the anonymous screenname and we'll continue to put as much credibility to your statements as that warrants.
Secondly - I don't justify my time investment in this blog to anyone least of which someone who can't formulate a thought without using some variation of a four letter word.
If you can't respect anyone enough to give them time to review your discussion points then you are truly not worthy of debating...
Anonymous: I don't think it is me who is narrow minded, perhaps you should be looking in the mirror and asking the person who looks back at you. You do not help your position with all the hostility and name-calling-we've seen plenty of that too from other commenters on previous issues, and it gets old real fast. As far as the sites I use to obtain my information, I can only conclude that you choose not to use them, because they do not tell you what you want to hear. Next I bring up the compromising of my Faith and position, because the only way to get some sort of favorable response from you is to do just that--AND THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!! It is and has been my intention to deal with any issue directly, and if you can't take the heat, then you should stay out of the kitchen. Enough said on this subject!
I'm sorry. Could you repeat that? I couldn't hear you over the "pulpit-pounding".
Get off the pulpit-pounding-soap box. If this is the best you can do then just don't bother!
I have been out of this very interesting debate because of a busy schedule. I will try to catch up now. Sorry for the long post.
***These methods will work if we have laid the groundwork with our children at home.***
True. We as parents, family, friends and neighbors should all be responseable for teaching our young ones values and morals. Not leaving it up t the goverment.
Topic Sex Education:
I think we should teach all forms of contraception from abstinence to the pill. At appropriate ages. Start with abstinence at a young age and get more involved in other techniques as they get older. Until you can describe pulling out.
***prevention being taught over abstinence is not true at all.***
When I was going through H.S. i never heard one thing about abstinence.
***if our Schools were still allowed to use the Bible in class***
Unfortunately this would be a violation of church and state. Because you would be declaring the morals of the bible absolute, thus violating the first amendment.
***should be permitted to read the Bible***
The only thing unfortunate here is the fact that schools are to worried about offending people to allow this. That is why it is winter break and not christmas break.
***how would you know that anon 2's school is the exception not the rule?***
Because those are the facts.
***school sponsored prayer groups that meet during the day are extremely rare in the US***
They are rare
THIS DISCUSSION HAS BEEN MOVED TO A NEW POSTING... PLEASE SEE
RELIGION IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS 6/13/05
Post a Comment